After the disc saga - the next stage?

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Hi,

There are plenty of us here suffering with degenerating, prolapsed, herniated, torn, ruptured, slipped discs etc. But what when the disc has degraded so much that there are now problems with the facet joints overlying or rubbing and the foraminal space disappearing?

Has anyone any advice on the best steps then please?
 
I find wild Mediterranean oil of oregano to be helpful for my degenerative disk disease and ruptured disk. I was nearly crippled with back problems when I was in my 40s. My life changed dramatically when I began to take a 50/50 blend of oil of oregano and olive oil. (Pure oil of oregano is caustic, it needs to be cut with olive oil.) I take the herb in capsules. The price varies a great deal, some brands are outrageously expensive. I don't know if you have Solaray brand in the UK. It is the least expensive I could find in the States.

I have been taking this herb for about 12 years. I am now active and suffer very little back pain, as long as I am moderate in my approach to strenuous activities. The one activity which does temporarily throw me out of whack is long distance driving. (A fit of severe sneezing did exacerbate my ruptured disk last year. It took a couple of weeks to heal.)

There is a booklet called "The Cure is in the Cupboard" by Dr. Cass Ingram, which discusses the use and efficacy of wild Mediterranean oil of oregano. I am not aware of any contraindications for this herbal oil. It helps the body to restructure. I did have some muscular discomfort when I began to take this herb, because my muscles were realigning themselves to normal position. I knew it was a good thing. I didn't worry about it.
 
Well not making it worse is the priority, stopping it getting worse is also a desireable objective. But can it be improved?

Contrary to the picture many seem to hold in their minds - that this is like tyres wearing in a car - cartillage is living tissue, and to an extent does regenerate, albeit slowly. Furthermore, there are metabolic processes involved in degeneration, this is not simply abrasion.

The body allocates resources according to demand, how tissues and organs are prioritiesd is balanced by the autonomic nervous system. For example, if the fight-or flight systems are invoked, muscle tissue will be favoured. Cartillage, being less active metabolically, has lesser support in times of stress. Hence adequate recovery, rest, emotional support, nutrition and mechanical ease are all part of the picture - same as for ANY health condition. Too many people think strenuous exercise is the answer to all health problems, it is not.

A few other factors need to be considered also, for example aspirin (which was very popular at the turn of the century for its now disputed beneficial effect on heart disease), actually impairs the laying down of collagen, and accelerates wear. There may be many such things, you never know what is going to be important in each case.

Weight-bearing facets you describe are a potential problem, but not everybody with these changes suffers from them, so there must be more aspects to it. It is typical of the medical mindset to look at the factors that can't be changed or are permanent (often setting up university departments to try and solve them), whilst dismissing the less glamourous influences that are relatively easy to handle.

I think it is a better strategy to look at the aspects that can be changed. What those may be is too big a subject for one post, but think 'general health' and 'living tissue' as your watchwords for the health of all joints, as much as any organ.
 
Have you had a recent high quality Mri scan & X-ray done Cassie?
and, what level/s are you talking about?

The reason I ask is, that as you say the facet structure is closing up the foraminal opening, you can expect 'symptomatic compressive pains' coming from this level, this is presuming that this is not already happening. If you are getting say 'sciatic nerve' problems at present, and this is where the facet joint problem is, you can bet they are linked.

The problem you describe is a 'mechanical' one. The discs don't just act as shock absorber, they are also a 'spacer'. reduction of that space will cause you compression and other issues, as I'm sure you are already aware!

The imperitive therefore, is to re-establish the space. The usual one Surgeons choose of course is 'fusion' (and you know what I think of that rubbish), the other is the newer disc replacement (artificial alloy and rubber discs) surgery. But if there are non-invasive 'stretching' therapies that you can tolarate and that you have not tried yet, that might give you a little relief from the worst of the compression, then give it a whirl!

I would love to believe that 'non-invasive' therapies could cure or largely improve your condition Cassie, because of the positive effects Osteopathy has had on my life, But given your back history, and my experiences, my mechanical mind will no let me ignore the facts.

If you need reserch help Cassie, you know where I am.

Best wishes

SPINELF
 
Over the last 34 years I have treated many many folk who have come to me in clinic with truely awful degerative changes on X-Rays and MRI scans and yet they report relatively few symptoms and have remarkably good movement and little pain.
By contrast the opposite is also true.
MRI scans and X-Rays show pretty tissue health state but the patient has very restricted movement and reports very bad and limiting symptoms.

So we cant say everyone with severe changes will get bad symptoms.
Usually there is a combination of different factors which cause an episode.

It may be that the person with severe changes can get along fine, but then they go through a major life change/episode of stress and changed physiology and that is a catalyst to them having a limiting episode.
They may become depressed and perhaps their usually relatively good 'happiness' pain relief falls away, it could be a period of ill health and general lack of activity and reduced circulation.

There are many factors, and any therapists to help when folk do have acute episodes. Fortunately many kinds of treatment help, either through changing blood flow, shifting an emotional or physiological state, the endorphine release of acupunture...the list is endless
 
Dogwoman ~ you are really very lucky if you find that oil helps and you only need a couple of weeks to heal a ruptured disc.

KVDP ~ I agree, several discs are rehydrating, I do rest most of the time and also take care with my diet, will investigate the aspirin effect though as I wasn't aware of that one.

To all ~ Why does that old chestnut keep rearing it's head about 'take a 100 miri's and 40% will be worse than yours and will have no pain' that is so unhelpful and I must find out the basis of that study lol, as I have found some factual studies that say the exact opposite, that some of the people scanned were not asked about their backs and any possible back pain or problems at all because they were scanned for different medical reasons?
 
C6/7 L2/3/4/5/S1 shall we start with those lol?

I have had great success from the exercise in the Back Bible that was recommended to me here, the rolling and leg bends etc, and the mri's show improvement in some areas And yes now fusion on the lower levels has reared it's ugly head

Ostepoathy (cervical area) and Chiropractic ( lumbar area) have certainly had their day and improved many things and changed others. I guess it's not everyone that has 3 or more MRI's in a year and can actually chart the changes. I know I was stunned!

Cooooeee, put the kettle on please
 
Au contraire, it's totally helpful.

The way so many people look at their situations is "here's the finding, there's the diagnosis, so there's nothing that can change. It's drugs or surgery and a lifetime of living with the problem for me".

On the other hand, as alternative therapists we're in the business of saying "here's the finding, but there's so much more to the situation than that. Here's the diagnosis, but that's only the starting point for understanding the problem".

You can pay your money and take your choice, but surely the second version is more empowering and enabling, isn't it? It means that there may be something you can do about the problem, instead of simply surrendering to medical management. That's what you were after, wasn't it?

(incidentally, it is true, from OA of the hip to blood tests - findings and symptoms often have very little correlation)
 
I'm sorry if that didn't come across correctly. What I said was it took two weeks to heal an exacerbation of the ruptured disk. I did fail to mention that I temporarily increased the dosage from maintenance to acute condition dosage (from 2 to 6 capsules per day).
 
I was sent on 3 separate Pain Management courses to try and get me to come to terms with my condition and accept it, and that I would end up in a wheel chair! No way!

I am, well used to be, an alternative therapist working mainly with horses. I use(d) Reiki, Shiatsu, Massage, Aromatherapy, Crystal Therapy,Crystal Healing, Colour therapy, Aura Soma, Acupressure, Acupuncture, Hot stone massage, Cranial Osteopathy, Ostepoathy, Chiropractic, Meditation, Nutrition Therapy, Hydrotherapy, Bowen Therapy, Alexander Technique, and probably more that my brain fog is sheltering too lol.

Yups I also wanted to see what other methods, items and idea other have tried and used, hence the thread. It's for positive self-help options Maybe we should also have a medications thread to see what helps everyone as one of the main points that was stressed on course number 2 was that WE have to take charge of our health and often WE know more about our condition than the doctors or surgeons, so if there is a med that we find out about that may help, talk to the Pain Clinic or gp about it.

I actually find that from my experience many complementary therapies can cloud the real picture and affect the way a person reacts to situations and pain. Now this is mostly for the good, I agree, but it can mean that sometimes diagnosis is not as easy and does not follow the norm.

I have several conditions that show on mri but because I am clever at adapting my life and coping with the pain they are ignored, whereas, if I stopped all my hard work I know I would quickly deteriorate and need more invasive help? But maybe sometimes the bigger picture needs to be rammed down a surgeons throat?
 
Makes more sense now, thanks Didn't 6 capsules affect your gut though, that is pretty strong stuff. Not much evidence on pain relief though it seems to be more about fungicidal, anti-bac aspects?

I prefer White Willow in a tea, as I find it really hard to swallow meds every day.
 
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    Phoenix Blossom Spa ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒน Table shower .body scrub ๐Ÿ˜˜Three girls every day ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ 5124 Dundas West Street, Etobicoke โ˜Ž๏ธ 416-817-3366 ๐Ÿ‘ Newโ—๏ธNew girl Angela ,so young Petite and pretty๐Ÿ˜‹ open service ๐Ÿ˜œ๐Ÿ˜œ Sweet girl Luna deep massage ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ˜˜ Hot and sexy body very provocative service ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜โค๏ธ You are welcome to make an appointment at any time or walk in directly through the back door. We have ample parking spaces available
  35. Sabrina Fox:
    I'M HOT BUSTY AFRICAN GIRL AVAILABLE AT WESTON & ST. CLAIR. LETS HOOK UP! ๐Ÿ“ž 647-271-9648
  36. ใ™ใฟใพใ›ใ‚“:
    Gabby , sunny , larissa , lora, michelle , christine on duty at top notch.
  37. Nu spring spa888:
    โค๏ธโค๏ธโค๏ธsexy hot Germany๐ŸŒธKorean ๐ŸŒธViennese girl working at๐Ÿ’“๐Ÿ’“ Nu spring spa โ˜Ž๏ธ416-669-8508โค๏ธโค๏ธโค๏ธ
  38. Golden Sunshine Spa:
    โœจClick on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! โœ… Click Here Today๐ŸŒธSusan๐ŸŒธLuna๐ŸŒธXuka๐ŸŒธLynda๐ŸŒธBrandy Call us โ˜Ž 905 - 265 - 2158โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate service awaits! โœจ
  39. SL East Spa:
    ๐Ÿ’†โ€โ™€๐Ÿ’–Tuesday ๐Ÿ’œ Ultimate destination for Asian massages๐ŸŽ‰ Two fab spots: SL Richmond Hill & SL West Oakvilleโœจ Your passport to paradise with 10 enchanting girls fr China, HK, Japan & Korea โ€” ๐Ÿ†• Aliyah, Lucy, Cindy, Yui, new Jojo, Coco, Cici, busty Amber, Kelly & Jasmine โ€” ready to pamper you๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ Ring us ๐Ÿ“ž647-695-6354 or text us ๐Ÿ“ฑ647-578-8169โœจ 160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, RichmondHill ๐Ÿ’ฐWhere Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awai
  40. SpringGreen.:
    Apple off your weeked with a bang๏ผ Judy is at spring green in downtown toronto Tuesday from 9am-9pm with apple and coco. apple is a very beautiful andcaring young lady๏ผkitty is super hot.๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹647-891-0699 ask and text questions thanks๐Ÿ’‹๐Ÿ’‹
  41. wilson holistic centre:
    new girl works at ๐Ÿ’‹535 Evans Ave today ๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•๐Ÿ’•โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ416-531-6969โ˜Ž๏ธโ˜Ž๏ธ
  42. Spa in Markham:
    GOLDEN FS โ€“ 8380 Kennedy Rd ๐Ÿ“ž 905-258-0777 / 416-688-6886 ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐Ÿ‡ฌ CANDY, ๐Ÿ‡ญ๐Ÿ‡บ VANESSA, ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ด MEGAN (2AM), ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ JULIE (8PM) ๐Ÿ”Ž View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule ๐Ÿ›Ž๏ธ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookinggoldenlove
  43. FLOWER Spa - BLUEXADO | Thornhill | VAUGHAN:
    BLUEXADO FS โ€“ #06-1102 Centre St ๐Ÿ“ž 416-357-9797 / 416-678-8668 ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ CICI, ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ MY LINH, ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ AMY, ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ SHERRY ๐Ÿ”Ž View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule ๐Ÿ›Ž๏ธ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookingbluexadolove
  44. Red Rose Spa:
    ๐ŸŒธ We have 13 hot brown girls today ๐ŸŒธ MONICA, ASHA, MALIYA, MONIKA, ANGEL, MIMI, PREETI, ANGELINA, DIYA, PAYAL PEARL, KIRAN ๐ŸŒธ 2588 Birchmount ๐ŸŒธ 2 Invergordon ๐ŸŒธ 647-702-8800 ๐ŸŒธ Please visit for a great erotic massage
  45. FLOWER Spa โ€“ PINK | Scarborough | TORONTO:
    PINK FS โ€“ 3300 McNicoll Ave ๐Ÿ“ž 416-299-5515 / 416-817-3839 ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡ท ELINA, ๐Ÿ‡ป๐Ÿ‡ณ KELLY, ๐Ÿ‡ต๐Ÿ‡ญ MADY (1PM) ๐Ÿ”Ž View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule ๐Ÿ›Ž๏ธ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookingpinklove
  46. Jennyโ€™s Spa:
    ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’JENNYโ€™S SPA๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ’ โœ…5170 DUNDAS STREET WESTโœ… ๐Ÿ‘ŒETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4๐Ÿ‘Œ โ˜Ž๏ธ( 647-893-5196)โ˜Ž๏ธCall or Text โ˜Ž๏ธ( 437-888-3759)โ˜Ž๏ธCall Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY ๐Ÿ”ฅโœ…GRAND OPENING๐Ÿ’ฏNEW GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅEXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNYโ€™S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿ˜˜๐Ÿ”ฅโค๏ธ๐Ÿ‘Œ ๐Ÿ”ฅTWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY๐Ÿ”ฅ ๐Ÿ’ฏREAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS๐Ÿ’ฏ ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹Limited Time Special Promotion๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ’‹ โœ…๐Ÿ’ฆ30 Minutes Nude Mass
  47. DareDevil:
    ARIA WELLNESS ๐Ÿฌ๐ŸญADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, โ™ฅ๏ธRICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 (PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) โ™ฅ๏ธTODAY'S Schedule!โ™ฅ๏ธ Loaded lineup with Beautiful Girls : Yoga Lucy, Killer Kelly, Adorable Eva, Magical Mia and Work out๐Ÿ‹๐Ÿšด๐Ÿ’ช Babe Amy! BUY 10 HOURS (GET 11 HOURS) **TODAY'S PICK OF THE DAY ARE ๐Ÿฌ๐ŸญLUCY AND KELLY๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿญ**
  48. Soul Relax Spa:
    โœจ Looking for a relaxing escape? โœ… Click Here Meet๐ŸŒธNina๐ŸŒธAnna๐ŸŒธAmberCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now โ˜Ž 289 - 298 - 5662โ˜Ž๏ธ Your ultimate relaxation awaits! โœจ
  49. AliceSpa:
    TUESDAY at ๐—”๐—Ÿ๐—œ๐—–๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—ฃ๐—”, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough ๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿญ๐Ÿฒ-๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿต๐Ÿด-๐Ÿฌ๐Ÿด๐Ÿต๐Ÿด. 3 Young Beauties Today at Alice Spa. Open 10am to 9pm: CLOUDIA (10am-9pm): is Vietnamese, young, petite 5'2" & 96 Lbs, B Cup, best rim deep bbbj cim. $40 Room Fee + $80 (incl bbbj & fs). +$20 for rim/cim. Excellent open minded services. KITTY (1pm-9pm) is a new Korean girl, super busty, small body, new
  50. wonderspa:
    ๐ŸŒบWonder spa,(9421Jane st unit127)call416-5000-800โ˜Ž๏ธbest massage in vaughan,Tuesday RMT available,๐Ÿ’„sexy very young girl Mimi๏ผŒlong legs ,natural c cup,very good looking amazing massage nice body slide,really popular ๐ŸŽlong hair Lucy Q smile,very good looking ,strong to relax oil ,back walk,more experience,relief your pain,amazing ending๐Ÿ”ฅ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒนmust try
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